Spurious ARPA Targets DRS25A-NXT

R&D at our parent company reviewed this thread and passed on that the full auto-tracking feature in XL can be helpful as it is set not to acquire targets further than the land echoes. The ACQ by doppler examples seen are normal so one needs to adjust Gain/Sea/Rain as needed for the operational area (as everyone has seemed to already discovered). They confirm that there were no changes from the previous version of software for this but downgrading is a good way to confirm that it isn't software.

I am using the radar with the TZT 3 units at my main helm. I don't see how limiting the ARPA acquisition to the range of land echoes would be especially helpful. I could do that manually I assume by using a shorter range. Generally speaking, at least in my home waters there are more potential real and spurious targets between my boat and land anyway so it wouldn't help. It sounds to me as though your R&D group confirmed what Bayhouse tested, which is that setting the sea state manually to a higher level can reduce the spurious targets.

It sounds to me as though there is an issue with the software settings controlling the ARPA target selection on the NXT radars. I lived happily with prior generations of Furuno magnetron radars with ARPA that performed perfectly and never showed spurious targets. It wasn't until I got the DRS25A-NXT that I saw the issue so I am guessing it has to do with how the "auto acquire by Doppler" was implemented.

My boat will not be in the water again until May so I cannot test manually adjusting sea state myself for a while. I also want to try turning off the setting for auto acquire by Doppler, which I don't think I tried. Did anyone else try that?
 
I personally have very little thoughts on bayhouse case due to the starlink install, even if moved amps with damage can have issues. Thanks for following up. Stepping back on software is aways an option if you guys feel strongly it was something with the recent change(s). Our support team can send whatever older version you would like to try. I will ensure they are aware in case they can make some additional software tweaks for next version.
 
I personally have very little thoughts on bayhouse case due to the starlink install, even if moved amps with damage can have issues. Thanks for following up. Stepping back on software is aways an option if you guys feel strongly it was something with the recent change(s). Our support team can send whatever older version you would like to try. I will ensure they are aware in case they can make some additional software tweaks for next version.
I had the issue for quite a while before starting this thread nearly a year ago. The software history for the DRS25A-NXT shows the last update being v. 1.11 in April 2024. However, that version appears to have been aimed primarily at the XL: "Improved: TT Auto-acquisition (Full Auto-tracking) function is added for use with the avoidance route function on TZTXL."

Probably we would have to go back to v. 1.10 or even v. 1.07 to test whether there was something in the software update that produced the problem.

What's puzzling is that more people do not seem tobe reporting an issue. It's is not exactly subtle -- the radar display gets covered with numerous ARPA targets.
 
I personally have very little thoughts on bayhouse case due to the starlink install, even if moved amps with damage can have issues. Thanks for following up. Stepping back on software is aways an option if you guys feel strongly it was something with the recent change(s). Our support team can send whatever older version you would like to try. I will ensure they are aware in case they can make some additional software tweaks for next version.
So, let me see if I understand your response.

Even though my results are identical to Quitsa and SaltyBrad, MY problem is related to the Starlink install location/masthead light move.

Quitsa and SaltyBrad do not have a Starlink installed but experience identical outcome. Saltybrad even has a different array size.

I still experienced the issue with 1) with the starlink shut down entirely, 2) with sector blanking of that entire area (including the masthead light) blanked BUT my radar has been damaged by the Starlink??
 
I don't have a magic wand for you. I know the subject is more complex than most us understand. When studying anything it is best to reduce and make things as simple as possible. When one is in violation of NMEA 4000 installation standards and introducing RF to the environment near the subject unit in question, that isn't something I am even going to consider because basic guidelines are being broken. The longer it is in place the more likely issues are to get worse. Think of your ear as a receiver and if someone comes up and consistently yells into it, it is very disruptive. It goes beyond that because after they stop yelling, the ears might continue to ring. Eventually after enough yelling sessions occur, permanent damage happens and overall sensitively is affected. Same happens with sensitive receivers of just about everything. Same reason they don't recommend putting a GPS into the RF of a radar. Many will last for about 2-3 years before they can't hear anymore but there is a slow degradation of signal level long before then, but mostly goes unnoticed. It is not to say that there is also something else going on as well.
 
I don't have a magic wand for you. I know the subject is more complex than most us understand. When studying anything it is best to reduce and make things as simple as possible. When one is in violation of NMEA 4000 installation standards and introducing RF to the environment near the subject unit in question, that isn't something I am even going to consider because basic guidelines are being broken. The longer it is in place the longer likely issues are to get worse. Think of your ear as a receiver and if someone comes up and consistently yells into it, it is very disruptive. It goes beyond that because after they stop yelling, the ears might continue to ring. Eventually after enough yelling sessions occur, permanent damage happens and overall sensitively is affected. Same happens with sensitive receivers of just about everything. Same reason they don't recommend putting a GPS into the RF of a radar. Many will last for about 2-3 years before they can't hear anymore but there is a slow degradation of signal level long before then but mostly goes unnoticed. It is not to say that there is also something else going on as well.
I think we are a bit frustrated because it appears there is a genuine problem with a key safety feature that your engineering staff seems to not want to recognize. Just go back and look at the screenshot in my post that started this thread and see numerous spurious ARPA targets along with the handful of real targets that show a return under the ARPA symbol.

In my case, there is really no possibility that RF interference is a factor. No Starlink. My SCX-20 is mounted about 10 feet aft and 8 feet above the radar array, certainly meeting any specification for separation. The VHF and AIS transponder antennas are also about 10 feet away. The internal GPS receivers in my TZT3 units are four feet below the radar and effectively shielded by the hardtop, which has carbon fiber cloth.

I am pretty capable of understanding the complexities of the problem. Reducing it to simple terms, the radar is receiving a return from a target that it sees as moving at a rate above the ARPA speed threshold and displaying it as an ARPA target with the course and speed vector it has calculated from sequential returns. Just as with the sea state and rain filters that limit the display of target returns that the software determines are not vessels or other types of "real" targets, the ARPA software must apply a set of filtering parameters to the returns to determine whether to track and display them as ARPA targets.

A simple guess is that there are sea surface returns that the ARPA is identifying as targets that should be tracked and displayed but that the sea state filter is removing from the display (otherwise there would be some sort of return showing on or near the spurious ARPA targets. This would seem to be confirmed by the boat wake (which is not removed by the sea state filter and shows on the display) very often getting tracked by the ARPA. So this is telling me that the algorithms the ARPA software applies to the target returns to choose what gets tracked is not filtering out some weak sea surface returns that it should filter out.

A further guess is that the ARPA advanced settings might alter this behavior but since those are not meant to be changed by the user, we have no way of knowing what could be done to change it.

As I said in an earlier post, the outstanding ARPA performance I have experienced over the years with Furuno radars is a big part of why it is installed on my boat. Indeed, I removed a competitor's system and replaced it with Furuno because of the poor radar performance and the pathetic manual target tracking.
 
I have said that there might be something going on but we have thousands of this model installed on boats and just because three different dynamic boats with lots of factors going on doesn't necessary mean the answer is the same for each of them. I am not so quick to putting them into the same box. Overall, I am done commenting in this thread unless the parent company passes information because I can offer little more than what was already discussed at this point. The input is appreciated and I am sure that if something can be made better they will. Older versions of software are available for those who wish to try.
 
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