Electronics refit - 48 Viking Convertible Sportfish

[Wild Blue]

Hi Johnny Electron,

You've helped me out on my 35 Bertram with Furuno equipment in the past, thank you very much. I have a new boat, 48 Viking Sportfish and am getting ready for an electronics refit. I am favoring a Furuno buildout including:

2 - TZT24X
DRS25AX X class 6'
NAVpilot-711C
DFF3-UHD utilizing existing R599LH in hull xdcr
DFF3D with new 165T-B54 xdcr
DFF1-UHD
DT-800MSF
GP340
SC-33
2 - FI70
FA70

Have a few questions:
1) How does the DFF3D side scan compare to the TZT16 built in side scan in terms of range and coverage? The DFF3D states 120* port to stbd. What does the TZT16 do? DFF3D is rated at 800w, vs dual 150w xdrs for the TZT16? The DFF3D is 3 beam, port, stbd, and down. Does the TZT16 perform straight down?
2) I like the bottom discrimination function on my TZT2 in my old Bertram, and am interested in the DFF1-UHD for my Viking. Currently I have two in hull xdrs, a R599LH which I would use with the DFF3-UHD, and an R199. Will the R199 provide the bottom discrimination? If not, is there a xdcr that could replace the in hull R199 with bottom discrimination? I'd rather not drill another hole in the bottom. Would the 165T-50/200-SS260 combo xdcr for the DFF3D provide bottom discrimination?
3) Is there a tilted element version for the DT-800MSF?
4) Thoughts? I do everything from shallow water yellowtail to deep drop, swordfish, tuna, etc.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Johnny Electron]

The DFF1-UHD is no longer sold so you could consider the newer DFF1-UHD+ for that but I don't see a listed transducer you have planned for that.

A1) The DFF3D side-scan is no where near what a real side-scan offers as the transducer is not aimed out to the sides like the real side-scan. If you use the side-scan of the DFF1-UHD+ it will automatically replace the DFF3D side-scan features in the MFD. That is for good reason as the DFF3D side-scan is just "okay" but real side-scan is going to be a ton better. It is not possible to compare the 3D multi-beam with the internal fish finder of the TZT16x or the DFF1-UHD+ as they are too different from the 3D.

A2) You can never have bottom discrimination (BD) or Accufish (AF) from a transducer that shoots thru the hull. There is too much signal loss and distortions that happen with the hull. Plus R199 is a 2KW transducer that would go to something like the DFF3-UHD, not the DFF1-UHD or DFF1-UHD+.

A3) No but smart sensors are different as they are good for deadrise up to 22 degrees due to the wide beams.

A4) It sounds like you a on track to have a very nice system. Bottom discrimination if important will need to have a rated C/W transducer connected to something like the DFF1-UHD+. There are no CHIRP options for BD/AF. We the DFF1-UHD there was only ONE CHIRP option (B265LH) but that fish finder is no longer available. The engineers found that BD/AF work best with CW and they have decided to go all in for the extra performance offered by running suitable CW.

 

[Wild Blue]

Great, thanks for the reply.

RA1) Sounds like I might need to wait on the true side scan as I'm not ready for 2 more holes in the bottom this time around. But I will go with the DFF3D since the xdcr shaft is 2" and will fill the existing hole. So my next question on this topic is - can a 165T-50/200-SS260 xdcr be used for the multibeam (3) on the DFF3D, and also hook up to the DFF1-UHD+ for the BD/AF using the 50/200 elements? (if I understood the specs right)

RA2) Sounds like my R199 is pretty much useless. Maybe a spare.

RA3) So the DT-800MSF can be mounted flush on the hull, no fairing? My deadrise in that area is about 14*. That would be great since it is just for digital depth redundancy and temp. Plus, plugs another hole.

 

[Johnny Electron]

ARA1) Unfortunately the elements in the DFF3D combo transducer is not rated for BD/AF. It makes a good one transducer solution for running both a multi-beam and a fish finder but it is not suitable for the BD/AF.

ARA2) Yes a spare, unless you want to sell it off to someone.

ARA3) Yes the DT-800MSF (or the newer version 810) can be mounted flush and the beam would accommodate the 14 degree rise and still obtain a good digital depth.

 

[Quitsa]

You might look at an Airmar DST810 in lieu of the DT-800. It can be mounted flush (mine is on 18 degree deadrise) and will also give you speed through the water. I find that speed through the water is quite helpful when trolling if you are fishing someplace with current and want a consistent presentation of the trolling spread.

The DST810 can be removed from inside with the boat in the water in case you need to clean the speed paddlewheel and to protect the paddlewheel from damage when hauling out if the Travelift straps would be near its location. It will read depth down to about 300 feet and gives you total redundancy for depth data absent a failure of your NMEA 2000 network since the depth data can be displayed on your FI-70 instruments and on the 711C autopilot control head and even on your phone with the Airmar CAST app with which it connects via Bluetooth.

 

[Wild Blue]

Thanks again Jonny.

Good catch on the DFF1UHD+. Guess I've been going by some of the older literature. Definitely going with the DFF1UHD+. Guess I will need to drill 2 more holes in the bottom. Any comments on the paired transducers regarding 230 kHz or 455 kHz? I'm leaning 230 kHz for range.

ARA1) Unfortunately the elements in the DFF3D combo transducer is not rated for BD/AF. It makes a good one transducer solution for running both a multi-beam and a fish finder but it is not suitable for the BD/AF.

ARA2) Yes a spare, unless you want to sell it off to someone.

ARA3) Yes the DT-800MSF (or the newer version 810) can be mounted flush and the beam would accommodate the 14 degree rise and still obtain a good digital depth.

 

[Johnny Electron]

455 is a tad better imaging. 230 will go a bit further out due to the lower freq. Both work very well.

 

[Wild Blue]

You might look at an Airmar DST810 in lieu of the DT-800. It can be mounted flush (mine is on 18 degree deadrise) and will also give you speed through the water. I find that speed through the water is quite helpful when trolling if you are fishing someplace with current and want a consistent presentation of the trolling spread.

The DST810 can be removed from inside with the boat in the water in case you need to clean the speed paddlewheel and to protect the paddlewheel from damage when hauling out if the Travelift straps would be near its location. It will read depth down to about 300 feet and gives you total redundancy for depth data absent a failure of your NMEA 2000 network since the depth data can be displayed on your FI-70 instruments and on the 711C autopilot control head and even on your phone with the Airmar CAST app with which it connects via Bluetooth.

Thanks Quitsa, appreciate it. Not sure I want to deal with the paddle wheel in Florida water marine growth.

 

[Quitsa]

Thanks Quitsa, appreciate it. Not sure I want to deal with the paddle wheel in Florida water marine growth.

It's really pretty easy to pop it out when it needs cleaning. There is a flap valve in the through hull and a blanking plug you put in place of the transducer. I am a big fan perhaps because it is not unusual for us to have more than one knot current running so if I am trying to drag my lures at 5.8kts, I have to do 6.8kts SOG down current and 4.8kts upcurrent. Sometimes it makes a big difference to the fish to have the right amount of bubbles and commotion.

 

[Wild Blue]

It's really pretty easy to pop it out when it needs cleaning. There is a flap valve in the through hull and a blanking plug you put in place of the transducer. I am a big fan perhaps because it is not unusual for us to have more than one knot current running so if I am trying to drag my lures at 5.8kts, I have to do 6.8kts SOG down current and 4.8kts upcurrent. Sometimes it makes a big difference to the fish to have the right amount of bubbles and commotion.

Yeah, I hear you. Pondering. I believe the temperature sensitivity on the DT-800 is better, which I like.

I also saw Airmar's new ultrasonic smart transducer. Gives speed, temp, and depth. No paddle wheel. Obviously priced accordingly.

 

[Quitsa]

Yeah, I hear you. Pondering. I believe the temperature sensitivity on the DT-800 is better, which I like.

I also saw Airmar's new ultrasonic smart transducer. Gives speed, temp, and depth. No paddle wheel. Obviously priced accordingly.

Airmar has been struggling with the ultrasonic speed transducers for years. The early models were taken off the market. It is an attractive concept that is apparently hard to implement. I am pretty sure the thermistor in the DT800 is identical to the DST810 and thus there us n difference in the temperature performance. My experience is that the temperature capabilities of the regular transducers such as a B175H and also in the DFF-3D transducers is better than the DST810.

 

[Wild Blue]

Hi Johnny,

One more question (for now).

Just want to check on how many sounders can be displayed on one TZT24X?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Johnny Electron]

You can have two fish finders, one multi-beam and one side-scan. You can only show one fish finder along with the multi-beam and side-scan. You can select which one of the two fish finders you are showing by changing your fish finder source under the fish finder menu.
(Keeping in mind if you have two MFDs, each MFD can be looking at different fish finders, so you can have one fish finder on each MFD)

 

[Wild Blue]

SC33 vs. SCX20 and should I consider PG700? Seems like SC33 should be much improved over the SCX20. With either of those, do you need the PG700 (redundancy maybe)?

Guess I'll add 2 HUB102s to my list.

 

[Quitsa]

I see no particular reason to spend twice as much to get the older design SC-33 versus an SCX-20, which will also take up more space. It is slightly more accurate but the difference is minor and would have no noticeable impact on the performance of the autopilot or radar/chart overlay.
The SCX-20 seems to have a very low failure rate so I am not sure why you would bother with a PG700 unless you think the Russians or Chinese will jam GPS, in which case you will have lost your more critical position data from all sources too. You can get home without a functioning SCX-20 although with more work steering manually.

Why do you think you need two HUB102s? Is it because of the number of network devices connected by ethernet? On a large boat like yours that has protected dry enclosed areas for mounting electronics, the waterproof connectors are not needed. You can use any good network switch and quality Cat6 shielded ethernet cable and save a lot of money. I have a Netgear GS108 with eight ports, which also comes in a 16 port version. You could buy 5 of them for the cost of one HUB102. They are native 12V so you just cut the power cable off the 110V wall transformer and connect it to the boat's DC supply. Mine has worked perfectly for five years. Just make sure the ethernet switch you choose is not a "smart" managed switch -- you need an old-fashioned "dumb" unmanaged switch to use with the Furuno hardware.

 

[Wild Blue]

Thanks Quitsa, appreciate the input. Do you know how the SCX20 compares on heaving compensation vs. the SC33? I didn't realize the SCX20 was a newer model, did seem most comments where leaning that way. Most of my interest is in sounder compensation (as well as GPS/radar overlay). I believe the SC33 also uses accelerometers for compensation offsets. Leaning to the SCX20 based on what you mentioned.

Can't trust those Russians and Chinese, never know. Maybe I'll break out the old RDF as backup. And remember when we actually used to use a compass.

Netgear it will be. That's what I currently have.

 

[Quitsa]

Thanks Quitsa, appreciate the input. Do you know how the SCX20 compares on heaving compensation vs. the SC33? I didn't realize the SCX20 was a newer model, did seem most comments where leaning that way. Most of my interest is in sounder compensation (as well as GPS/radar overlay). I believe the SC33 also uses accelerometers for compensation offsets. Leaning to the SCX20 based on what you mentioned.

Can't trust those Russians and Chinese, never know. Maybe I'll break out the old RDF as backup. And remember when we actually used to use a compass.

Netgear it will be. That's what I currently have.

According to the specifications in the manuals, the SCX-20 has a heave correction accuracy of 5cm versus 30cm for the SC-33. That's big enough to create a noticeable difference I would think.

I am old enough and have been operating boats for so long that I navigated with paper charts and a compass for quite a few years and with a sextant offshore. I actually even used a sounding lead. It was an astounding day 40+ years ago when I bought a Micrologic LORAN that could display position and speed over the ground (by then I had an electronic depth sounder) on its tiny little screen. No, I did not operate a steam engined vessel! I am not that old.

 

[Wild Blue]

Wow, Micrologic, haven't heard that since Northstar. Never graduated to a sextant, although was very interested as a kid. Had one of the plastic "learning" models. Trees got in the way though .

Good to hear on the SCX-20 specs. I didn't catch that. Sounds like I'll go with the SCX-20. Appreciate the input and thanks again.