Heading sensor and Transducer performance on new TZT3

[DaVapors]

Hello Experts!

I purchased a new furuno system this year and love it!

Only a few gaps listed below that I’m closing at the moment.

1. My heading sensor has gone out a couple times in rough seas (eventually came back after slowing down and rebooting). This one makes me the most nervous.

2. My 165T-TM260-200/50 DFF3D is only reading to 525’ in the Gulf Stream. All of the furuno videos say 1000’ in the Gulf Stream. Is it possible I have it configured incorrectly?

3. My thru-hull bronze B175M is only reading to 730’ in low fixed frequency (shallower in higher and chirp frequencies) in the Gulf Stream. Same as #2 above, all of the advertisements I’ve found show this transducer working in over 1000’.

I spoke briefly with my installer yesterday and was told that it could be interference between the units or water clarity. But I’m pretty sure I tested them independently and in the same Gulf Stream as the advertisement videos. Any suggestions? #1 is clearly the biggest issue at the moment.

Thanks,
DaVapors

 

[Quitsa]

You may wish to supply some additional information such as the speeds at which you are operating the units. Transom mounts can be more prone to aeration and other issues that limit performance.

When you say that you can only read to 525' with the 165T-TM260-200/50 DFF3D, I assume you mean with the 50/200Hz elements using the regular sounder connection to your MFD and not the DFF-3D? 525' would be about the maximum depth for a DFF-3D? The low frequency (50Hz) used with the internal TZT 3 sounder should read much deeper. -- well over 1,000 feet. For the 200Hz side, 525' would be decent and not much more depth could be expected.

Is you problem that the sounder does not show bottom at all in greater depths (assuming we are talking about the 50Hz element)? Or it is lack of detail?

 

[DaVapors]

Thx for the reply! I haven’t been able to use the 50khz yet, but will test that out next time.

I was actually stopped when trying to mark bottom and was going off the multiple YouTube videos that say (and show) the DFF3D marking bottom and fish in 1000’. My DFF3D only marks to 525’ @165khz. This seems logical as I get about 300’ @200khz and 725’@85khz. Just different from what I heard and saw on YouTube.

Not a huge deal for me, but if I’m doing something wrong—I’d love to fix it.

I’m much more concerned about losing heading in ruff seas (washing machine) at high speed (30knts). Not sure where to start to see if it’s hardware or software configuration problem?

 

[Bayhouse]

Would help if you let us know what heading sensor you're using and where it's mounted.

 

[DaVapors]

I’m using the SCX-20 mounted on my T-top behind my DRS25nxt.

 

[Quitsa]

Thx for the reply! I haven’t been able to use the 50khz yet, but will test that out next time.

I was actually stopped when trying to mark bottom and was going off the multiple YouTube videos that say (and show) the DFF3D marking bottom and fish in 1000’. My DFF3D only marks to 525’ @165khz. This seems logical as I get about 300’ @200khz and 725’@85khz. Just different from what I heard and saw on YouTube.

Not a huge deal for me, but if I’m doing something wrong—I’d love to fix it.

I’m much more concerned about losing heading in ruff seas (washing machine) at high speed (30knts). Not sure where to start to see if it’s hardware or software configuration problem?

I have not seen the video to which you are referring that shows a DFF-3D operating in 1000' of water. Maybe operating in single beam mode it would show bottom at that depth but the specifications do not claim full side view operation beyond 650'. The beam width at even 600 feet is so great that I can't imagine there would be much detail.

You should get a good picture with 50Hz down to well over 1000' feet so give that a try. My B175L has shown a good clear bottom image in 1800', which is the deepest I have tried.

As for your SCX-20, it definitely should not be losing fix even in rough seas. Mine is mounted on the tower sunshade quite high up and consequently the motion is much greater in rough conditions that you would experience with a Ttop mount. It never loses its fix even running in steep 5-7 foot seas with the boat getting knocked around pretty good.

I would suggest you check all of the wiring connections to the SCX-20. The SCX-20 seems a little sensitive to voltage so you should also check for loose connections at the power tap for the NMEA 2000 network and measure the voltage on the power wires of the NMEA 2000 backbone.. Mine will reboot when I start one of the engines even though everything else on the NMEA 2000 network (AIS, weather sensor, etc) is unaffected. I assume that is because it has a long cable run. This winter I am going to add a second power tap up in the tower close to the SCX-20 and see if that helps.

 

[DaVapors]

https://youtu.be/ngA8Ovs64jo

https://youtu.be/5tMH1WyL6xw

I’m focused on power at the moment as well, just added that to the TZT3s to track.

 

[Johnny Electron]

All the DFF3D Ads I have seen quote it is rated up to 900 ft. The majority of the installs I have seen get about 1000. If you are only getting 300ft; there is most likely a setting, install issue, or something else that is holding you back. To eliminate turbulence let the boat float and run the sonar to see what depth you can reach. If you have photos of the install under the hull you might post them for the acoustic guys to look at. Keep in mind how TVG works (time varied gain) to drive the gain deeper into the water along with the normal gain settings.

 

[DaVapors]

All the DFF3D Ads I have seen quote it is rated up to 900 ft. The majority of the installs I have seen get about 1000. If you are only getting 300ft; there is most likely a setting, install issue, or something else that is holding you back. To eliminate turbulence let the boat float and run the sonar to see what depth you can reach. If you have photos of the install under the hull you might post them for the acoustic guys to look at. Keep in mind how TVG works (time varied gain) to drive the gain deeper into the water along with the normal gain settings.

Thx Johnny, when I’m stopped for a few mins the 165t-50--200-tm260 DFF3D still only marks to 525’ at 165khz.

I read that I can increase the ping/pulse on my B175M to get it to mark deeper, does the DFF3D have something similar? I’m not familiar with TVG, I’ll see what I can find on YouTube. Thx again!

Finally, here are the installation pictures of my scx-20. My buddy thinks the starboard that it’s mounted on might be smacking against the t-top bar underneath it..and causing the heading sensor failure in ruff seas. He recommended putting some padding in between. What do y’all think?

Btw, I think I resolved my power issues today.

 

[mikek]

Is your SCX20 going out when your radar is on? I didn’t think you could mount it where the antenna will rotate above it. I am working on a project now and will probably go with a 3.5’ radar instead of 4’ to get the SCX far enough away from the antenna.

 

[DaVapors]

No, the heading sensor only goes out in really ruff seas when traveling at high speeds regardless of radar use.

 

[Johnny Electron]

While the SCX20 is below the radar transmission, it is physically close so that the gearbox is blocking all the SATs that direction especially near the horizon. The physical blockage of the antenna swinging over the top isn't great either. The base doesn't look solid and would appear to add vibrations especially when the boat is bouncing and the radar is running. The support base only seems to have support in the center. It isn't the problem you have with the sounder going deep but it is a problem.

 

[DaVapors]

While the SCX20 is below the radar transmission, it is physically close so that the gearbox is blocking all the SATs that direction especially near the horizon. The physical blockage of the antenna swinging over the top isn't great either. The base doesn't look solid and would appear to add vibrations especially when the boat is bouncing and the radar is running. The support base only seems to have support in the center. It isn't the problem you have with the sounder going deep but it is a problem.

Thx again Johnny! I was told that my local Furuno sales representative approved this design on my boat earlier this summer. How would you recommend that I proceed resolving this heading sensor installation problem?

 

[Quitsa]

Johnny is the expert but I have to say I cannot believe any experienced installer would have put your SCX-20 in that location. It has just about everything wrong. Not only is the view of the GPS satellites substantially blocked, the proximity to the radar pedestal exposes the SCX-20 to all sorts of powerful electromagnetic fields.

Have you ever tried looking at the "Sky View" to see how many satellites the SCX-20 is receiving?

I would not be at all surprised if were you to move the SCX-20 as far away as possible and mount it on a pole so it is above the plane of the radar antenna array, your problems would go away.

Many people seem to want to find fault with the equipment. In this case, absolutely none of the installation guidelines in the instruction manual were followed.

 

[Johnny Electron]

If you post a photo of your top from about 25 feet away so we can see what is mounted in the surrounding area of the radar we might be able to provide some better suggestions. Quitsa is correct that using a pole mount and put it up above the radar beam would work but you would need to move it away from that radar because at that location the radar antenna would physically hit your pole mount. Ideally would find a nice flat spot on the hard top but you must be aware of physical blockages and RF sources around it. If the same installer was involved with the DFF3D, I would be a bit more worried about that install.

 

[DaVapors]

Thx again for the help! Here are a few more pics. It’s like the starboard is acting like a diving board when it smacks off the t-top bar in ruff conditions.

 

[Quitsa]

Thx again for the help! Here are a few more pics.

I think you need to take some pictures from a lot farther away. It seems there is quite a lot going on up there. I see a VHF antenna that is closer than recommended and what looks like an outrigger base, which is probably not an issue (with the pole installed).

I don't want to sound too negative but the person who did your installation needs to find another line of work or they need to start reading the installation instructions. Putting the SCX-20 two inches from the radar pedestal is not something anyone with basic competence would ever do. It's a miracle it works at all in that location.

 

[DaVapors]

Thanks Quitsa, I’ll take some more pics from the stairs in the background when I can. I don’t have a drone, does this pic help at all?

 

[Quitsa]

Of course you should wait to hear from one of the Furuno guys but my sense is that you could pretty easily get a pole with a clamp on mount that could be attached to the aft section of the pipe frame for your canvas top. The top of the radar antenna is about 18" (45cm) above the mounting base so you would probably be fine with a pole about 24" (60cm) high. The SCX-20 would have a completely clear sky view and be above the radar beam. It should work well moved to that type of mount. To be extra safe you could set a small radar blanking sector of 10 degrees directly aft so the SCX-20 would not be exposed at all.

 

[Johnny Electron]

I can't tell a lot by that photo but I agree with Quitsa because it is a soft top, a pole mount, mounted either low below the radar beam or above the radar beam would be best.

What I did notice from the photo is a big pet peeve of mine. The radar array doesn't appear to be properly sealed. When enough sealant is used a bead of sealant should be able to be seen 360 degrees around where the stick meets the gearbox base. Then they are suppose to put some sealant on the threads of the bolts before inserting and lastly cover the bolt heads with the provided white 3Bond sealant. I feel really bad for people when a gearbox is ruined because it isn't sealed properly. Water intrusion isn't warranty and shortcuts make for some very expensive repairs. Not sealing well can also led to paint/corrosion issues. If that was mine, I would pull that stick off and re-seal it; if it is even sealed at all. Then complete the job by covering those array bolts.