NN3D & Internet

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aquabelle

Furuno Super Fan
I have an MFD12 & a DRS4 & a laptop running MaxSea TZ Explorer, all connected to an off-the-shelf wireless modem/router with ethernet cables at my lower helm. I disconnect the laptop from the ethernet cable when I take it to my flybridge, where it wirelessly remains connected to my MFD12.

I am now planning to utilize the WAN port on the modem/router to connect a boosted wifi antenna (Rogue Wave) to pick up shore/marina access points & so provide the laptop...& any other wireless device on board...with internet access.

I understand that the NN3D network must not be 'polluted' with I/net so I want to understand the best way to achieve the required separation. If I no longer connect the laptop via ethernet to the modem/router but instead, connect only wirelessly at the lower helm (as I do now when at the flybridge helm), will this achieve what is needed to give me I/net connection to the laptop while keeping it connected to the MFD12?

thanks & regards
 
Johnny...I don't understand what you are saying....I already HAVE a wireless connection, operating without any problems, via an off-the-shelf modem/router with wireless & 4 x ethernet LAN ports. I don't use the modem part of course, but when I disconnect my ethernet connection at the lower helm & take my laptop to the flybridge it wirelessly connects back to the modem/router and displays the chart, radar etc.. I think lots of users are doing this.

My question was how to best allow my laptop to connect to the internet so I don't disturb the wired connection to NN3D at the lower helm.

thanks & regards
 
I've been looking for more information on this topic as well. I just recently purchased a boat with an MFD8 in it. As you said, it is definitely possible to connect devices over 3rd party wifi routers to the NN3D system. This is inherently supported by NN3D because the protocol is simply a local subnet, and Furuno sells 2-wire cables which allow interaction between the NN3D products (which use power synchronization) and other products like computers and switches, which don't use power synchronization. That is discussed here:
https://www.furunousa.com/en/knowledge_ ... _to_hub101
And in more detail here:
https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-ele ... et-3d.html

Therefore, one only needs to connect a 2-wire cable from the NN3D Hub or MFD to a wifi-enabled router, and then any wifi devices can connect to NN3D! This is no surprise to you (as you are doing it) or to anyone with some degree of understanding of networking.

Back to your question, can you add internet? I think it would be challenging at best. The NN3D system works off of its own subnet, I think 172.31.x.x or so, and the MFD acts as a DHCP server, which allows your computer to get an address on the network and talk to the MFD. This means you can't setup the the router like most home routers where it assigns an IP (like 192.168.x.x), or else you will not be able to talk to NN3D anymore.

The only two thoughts I have are:
Somehow configure your wifi router to be the gateway, but not as a DHCP server. Then, internet traffic goes out over your router but the MFD is still in charge of the DHCP, and you remain on the correct 172.31 network. I'm not sure if this is possible, or how this addition of internet traffic might "pollute" NN3D.
The other option is to set up separate subnets from your router using VLANs, so that the wire connecting to the NN3D is segregated to the 172.31 subnet, while everything else that connects gets the normal 192.168 address. Your laptop would then get a 192.168 address. And then you'd need to set up some routing between the subnets so that traffic intended for MaxSea gets routed from the 172.31 net to your laptop, but browsers and other things are unaware of the NN3D and use the 192 net. The more I think about this option, the less I think it's possible.

Any thoughts?
 
I gave up on the Rogue WiFi idea (after testing, no usable free WiFi available) and so I just set my phone up as a hotspot and connect my laptop to that wirelessly. Absolutely no problem remaining ethernet connected to the MFD12 simultaneously. Thanks for your clear explanation of basic network protocols. I love the MaxSea Navigator/NN3D interface and being able to get a 2-screen system by having the laptop display for eg radar while the MFD12 shows chart is a great added benefit.
 
It seems to me there's little that would prevent the MFDs from being on a network that also had an Internet uplink. The key is making sure the devices are getting their IP addresses properly. From what I can tell, and I'm new to owning a boat that already had 4 MFD12s on it, the key is letting one of the MFDs being the DHCP master for the network. This would mean disabling that feature on the uplink router, and configuring it to use the same subnet as what the master MFD is providing. Otherwise the MFD and various devices would have to be reconfigured to use the uplink's IP subnet and that could get overly complicated.
 
OK, just had a minor epiphany about the right way to do this. The only reason that Furuno demands one of the MFDs be specified as the Master is so that there is at least one DHCP server doling out IPs on the network. If I have a dedicated router in the network, then why not make it responsible for DHCP, so I just need to set my only MFD as a "slave". That way I get the best of all worlds: Everything gets an IP (from the router), and I can have all my devices (laptops, iPads) connect to the router as well, giving them access to NN3D packets or generic NMEA packets if you have a NMEA to ethernet converter on the net. This router could also be connected to a WiFi booster and could connect to WiFi at marinas, etc. That way, I'd have all devices on one network, and when connected to internet, my devices could both browse the web and see nav and radar data on MaxSea.

All said, I have not tried it.
:sail
 
easyvictor":1zzooh6h said:
OK, just had a minor epiphany about the right way to do this. The only reason that Furuno demands one of the MFDs be specified as the Master is so that there is at least one DHCP server doling out IPs on the network. If I have a dedicated router in the network, then why not make it responsible for DHCP, so I just need to set my only MFD as a "slave". That way I get the best of all worlds: Everything gets an IP (from the router), and I can have all my devices (laptops, iPads) connect to the router as well, giving them access to NN3D packets or generic NMEA packets if you have a NMEA to ethernet converter on the net. This router could also be connected to a WiFi booster and could connect to WiFi at marinas, etc. That way, I'd have all devices on one network, and when connected to internet, my devices could both browse the web and see nav and radar data on MaxSea.

All said, I have not tried it.

As yet, neither have I. I have an on-board wifi router, but it doesn't have a wired downlink from the device that's up on the mast. And then Wirie tanked, so support is gone.

The question is whether a NN3D setup can operate without doling out it's own DHCP leases. As in, let "something else" on the network issue IP addresses via DHCP. In many situations that's not a big deal. Simply turn off DHCP services and let them get issued by something else.

Side note: it's a VERY BAD THING to allow more than one device to act as a DHCP server on a network.

However, in some situations a device handing out DHCP leases is also using that data to provide other functionality. Like integrate the IP address leases with DNS to allow using friendlier hostnames instead of numeric IP addresses.

The question is whether a Master NN3D needs to do that. Can a multi-MFD setup operate without one of them being a Master? Or can that Master be configured to NOT issue DHCP leases for IP addresses?
 
Update: I've finally tried my proposed solution, and it WORKED. Well, mostly.

The short of it is: I set up my personal router to be on the 172.31.X.X subnet, and set my Navnet display to be a slave (master: OFF) in the setup wizard. Then connected the MFD and radar to the router. Therefore the MFD's DHCP server is off and it took an IP from my router, as did the radar. They are able to communicate fine. Of course my other electronics, laptops, etc, were all on this router as well, and they can talk to the NN3d devices. That means I pretty much have my cake and eat it too:
- MFD and DRS Radome work as they always did
- PC and tablets are also on the same network via WiFi, which means they can run TZ Navigator and get all the same data as my MFD
- The PC and tablets with TZ Navigator can send/receive routes to the MFD, so I can plan routes in detail on my PC and then upload them to the MFD when it's time to go
- My PC and other devices are all on the internet when my router is connected to my WiFi booster.

The ONLY snag that I've now hit is this: Because the MFD thinks it is a slave, and there is no master, there is no System ID. So when it boots, it says it can't find the system ID and therefore my chart keys can't be validated. It's giving me a total of 30 reboots before I'll loose access to my charts on the MFD. I have not figured out a resolution here.

If there are any Furuno technicians, engineers, or otherwise anyone with contact information for the people who developed the Navnet software, please advise. I have paid-for charts that should work but don't due to this quirk in my setup.
 
I'm thinking that keeping an MFD as a master AND understanding how it issues DHCP addresses would be part of the answer. As in, the MFD's DHCP lease issuing does seem to follow a certain methodology for where some devices get their IP vs others. I'd think if whatever router/wifi access point was used could fit into that scheme then it'd work.

That or know what added DHCP lease info the MFD sends out with addresses, and if they're relevant to the whole System ID scheme. There are a bunch of option frames that DHCP leases can use. I ran into that with some set-top cable TV boxes. Long story, and not directly relevant, but basically the DHCP server had to be configured to tack on some additional info when the boxes asked for addresses. Boxes woke up, made a request with certain info in their lease request, server saw that info and returned more than just typical DHCP lease options, just for the set top boxes. I'm guessing something similar could be involved here.
 
I was able to use WireShark to see the IP subnet used by NN3D, and essentially mirrored that on the router. On my system, with the MFD DHCP on (and router DHCP off) I had the following:
MFD: 172.31.100.254
Radar: 172.31.254.3
Laptop: 172.31.254.4

I just looked at the MAC addresses of the MFD and Radar, and essentially set up an assigned IP in my router settings for those devices to get those exact IPs, and it worked. I set the router to work on the 172.31.X.X subnet (mask: 255.255.0.0).

The problem here is that the "slave" MFD is expecting to get the SystemID from the master, probably via an encrypted TCP packet or something similar, but it's never getting it. So I'm kind of stuck here unless I can produce my own System ID packet.

I've been in communication with Timezero and they've basically said it would be impossible to get the details on the SID handshake packets, as that's what essentially enforces DRM on the charts.
 
If you are developing a product and need to access the Furuno network you must apply for and purchase an SDK (Software Development Kit). This topic falls beyond our normal focus of this consumer forum and not discussed in more detail here. Please contact your local Furuno distributor directly for details on SDKs.
 
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